Honda CBR600RR Discussion Forum

Main Forum for Motorcycle discussion => FAQ Section (Frequently Asked Questions) => Topic started by: Cane on October 05, 2008, 03:21:43 PM

Title: What gas to use?????
Post by: Cane on October 05, 2008, 03:21:43 PM
I have a question, and it deals with gasoline types and what to use. I know that as of now I use 93 octane and only purchase gas from the same two stations wither it be a Speedway, or Shell. My question is as follows, I know that once you start using a synthetic oil, you shouldn't go back to conventional oil again. Now here is were the question is, being that 93 octane is the highest rated fuel you can purchase at a market, how much damage can we do if we use a octane booster or fuel injector cleaners that contain boost in it. I know some boosters only contain maybe 3points, so going from 93 octane to 96 octane street use, is damage occurring? I'm asking cause what I would like to know is what additives can we use that will safely clean the injectors and fuel system. Much like how cars have the engine treatments that you just add to the oil, are those safe to use to we have a version of that we can run for 600 miles and then drain for sludge? And build up? Regulations stop gas stations from adding additives each one is tha same as the next either it be 89, 90, 91, 93 all have the same....just asking...


Octane Levels
The most common levels of octane grade are 87 (regular), 89 (mid-grade) and 91-93 (premium). The octane number of the gasolines offered for sale are set by gasoline refiners and marketers based on their perception of the technical and competitive needs in the market. Federal and most state regulations do not regulate minimum octane values, only that the postings on the dispensers accurately reflect the octane number of the gasolines being sold.

Gasoline with a higher heating value (energy content) provides better fuel economy. Traditionally, premium gasoline has had a slightly higher heating value than regular, and, thus, provides slightly better fuel economy, but it is difficult to detect in normal driving. There can be even larger differences in heating value between batches of gasoline from the same refinery, between summer and winter volatility classes, or between brands of gasoline from different refineries because of compositional differences. The differences are small and there is no practical way for the consumer to identify gasoline with a higher-than-average heating value.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Jason748 on October 05, 2008, 04:28:11 PM
 :pop:

So I'm not writing a book.... start here.
http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index.php/topic,18413.0.html (http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index.php/topic,18413.0.html)
http://kapitalmoto.co.uk/node/24 (http://kapitalmoto.co.uk/node/24)
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: vfrbh1 on October 05, 2008, 05:13:54 PM
All there is around here is 87 octane, so that is what I use.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Cane on October 05, 2008, 05:31:35 PM
I ran 93 Octane for about 1300 miles and I guess Ill make the switch to 87 now.....and see how that runs, I was just afraid of pinging. It happen in my Eclipse and Talons....So I thought being a high rev motor that a higher grade would be best..ill bring it down thanx..
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: maskale on October 05, 2008, 05:36:19 PM
run what your manual says.  I run 87
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Cane on October 05, 2008, 05:38:35 PM
run what your manual says.  I run 87

ok, ill look it up and see what it says. For the ol 03...
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: cosmo on October 06, 2008, 06:50:31 AM
i run 99, if i can't find it, 98 8)
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: cosmo on October 06, 2008, 06:50:43 AM
ups, doublepost, :(
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Fretless33 on October 06, 2008, 10:24:14 AM
ok, ill look it up and see what it says. For the ol 03...

For the '03 it's 87...
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: hairbag on October 06, 2008, 02:35:12 PM
#1. You CAN switch back and forth between Syn motor oil & conventional with no I'll effects...period.

#2 As for fuel higher octane simply is less volital. It will not light off as soon as lower octane fuels in higher compression engines. Use the octane recommended in your owners manual.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: JayNH on October 06, 2008, 05:51:10 PM
My 08' manual says to use minimum 91 octane.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: JayNH on October 06, 2008, 05:55:27 PM
:pop:

So I'm not writing a book.... start here.
http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index.php/topic,18413.0.html (http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index.php/topic,18413.0.html)
http://kapitalmoto.co.uk/node/24 (http://kapitalmoto.co.uk/node/24)

In this you wrote that a steady diet of 92+ octane will leave carbon deposits. What is the cause of this?  Would I be better off with 87 or 89?
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Jason748 on October 06, 2008, 10:56:08 PM
In this you wrote that a steady diet of 92+ octane will leave carbon deposits. What is the cause of this?  Would I be better off with 87 or 89?

Hairbag hit on it a bit with #2.  The higher the Octane rating the less volital it is, or the slower it will ignite and burn.  What this really affects is the back side & exposed stems of the exhaust valves (and ports as well).  Basically because higher Octante fuel is burning at a slower pace, you end up with excess unburnt (and still burning in some cases) fuel and the impurities and leftovers going out the of the chamber.  As this unburnt fuel mixed with the impurities then hits the extremely hot surfaces of the valves and ports and starts to carbonize (leaving carbon deposits) on these surfaces.  That said all internalcombustion engines will have carbon deposits, but the more unburnt fuel, the more carbon deposits.

Overall you are best using the minimum Octane rating that: A) the owners manual recommends & B) does not cause pre-ignition.
For U.S. Spec bikes that means:
2003 - 2006  = 87
2007 & 2008 = 91

Other countries rate Octane differently so the minimum recommend rating will differ.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: JayNH on October 07, 2008, 05:43:51 AM
That makes sense, I never thought of it that way. Thank you.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: cosmo on October 07, 2008, 06:19:44 AM
damn, i dunno how comes i missed those threads about octane :-X. it really turns my world upside down :P

ok, now, a stupid question to you, but over here it is quite an issue. is there any way for the average joe to determine the true octane rating of a gas?

bear with me, the reason i ask this is because during comunism times over here, the state used to dillute various goods, and sell them as full-fledged products. for example, milk was half water, but it was considered you were sold 1 liter of milk.
similar things were done to gas stations (don't ask me how). the ideea is that i had a friend from UK come with his diesel car in romania. when he stopped to fill up in romania, the car wouldn't start again, even if the company was the same he had used (shell at the time, though there are no more shell stations now).

so when i fill it up with 99 octane, i actually have no ideea what octane i put in it, though most drivers here asume it's something like 95 abroad.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Cane on October 07, 2008, 10:45:05 AM
Well it makes sense now, But as far as knowing what you are really filling up with, we don't know either.There are supposed to be people that drive around to stations on avg and full up a blank tank to make sure you are really getting what you pay for and testing it for what ever it stating it is. Least thats what they tell us..lol
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: maskale on October 07, 2008, 12:10:35 PM
Portable octane analyzers (testing equipment) are available, but their use by the public is limited due to a cost range of 2-10 thousand dollars.
For more information on octane analyzers visit Shatox or Zeltex company websites.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Ivan Jelev on October 07, 2008, 03:31:28 PM
Well round here we have two choices about 100 octane petrol-OMW or Shell V-power,sometimes if I can`t afford myself 100octane I ride with 98,we don`t have here anything below 96 so I`m pretty surprised about those numbers 87 and so......
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: cosmo on October 07, 2008, 04:08:45 PM
i guess you're from europe? don't forget USA has different octane numbers(i belive it's AKI or sth like that). the rough-up is you add 4 octane points to get to EU (RON) equivalent. 87 aki=~91RON.

not sure about this, though, but as far as i know, americans use 2 octane testing methods, COR and COM (hell if i know what they stand for), and divide their sum by 2. you also see the rought up method used when it is specified (R+M)/2. Europeans use only COR reading..


as far as octane testing.. i guess i'll do the average joe test... get a tankfull of cheaper gas and see if i get any knocking. hopefully not. i wouldn't mind the savings that come from that 8)  now i just gotta wait for the rainy days to end so i can get rid of the full tank :P
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Jeff on October 07, 2008, 06:00:42 PM
As much as I despise Wikipedia, the article there on Octane is pretty good.

Simply put, higher octane PREVENTS pre-detonation (aka "pinging") whereby during the compression cycle of the motor, the gas & air mixture gets compressed.  That compression causes HEAT.  The heat can be so great that it will ignite the fuel/air mixture before the piston reaches TDC and the plug fires a spark.  When that happens, the motor "knocks" or "pings" and it loses power & is pretty hard on the motor.

Conversely, an octane TOO HIGH, will not burn completely and will burn much slower/cooler than a "correct" octane.  When this happens, it leaves deposits and robs the engine of power & economy.  So those people who feel they need to run 110 octane fuel in their stock motors are not only wasting money, they're killing mileage, losing power and damaging their motors. 

The consumer though is basically an idiot and will buy what they "think" will "clean out the motor", "give more power", etc.  A few years back I think it was exxon that was sued to have the phrase "Put a tiger in your tank" removed from their premium fuel advertising because it was misleading customers into buying higher grade fuel than necessary.

High octane doesn't clean shit, it doesn't give more power.  UNLESS, the motor is designed for it.  Then, of course, it wouldn't necessarily be "high octane", it would be "CORRECT octane"...

The correct octane is the lowest level you can use without predetonation.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: oxtar41 on October 07, 2008, 06:50:03 PM
"The correct octane is the lowest level you can use without predetonation."

That was the best statement about the "fuel debate" I have ever heard +1
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: maskale on October 07, 2008, 07:29:24 PM
ox make that your sig.   

i dont see how so many people run premium and are convinced their bike runs better. When all you have to do is read for a few min and learn the truth.
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: cosmo on October 07, 2008, 07:47:21 PM
lots of missinformation, maskale, and so nicely packed and sold to you don't even notice it.

the ideea is that i never heard about the "fuel debate", and since i read the thread about this, i talked to some of my friends, and they almost didn't belive me.(kinda of like the problem you have explaining the countersteering to an average sunday rider who swears it's all in the butt) the ideea is so common that ppl take it for granted that a higher octane=better, faster combustion. hence the wrong ideea (as i now see). besides that, comercials with "shell v-power racing" featuring an f1 car don't exactly point you in the right way. not that i can blame them, to them, it's pure profit. the problem is that it -seems- so logical, that you don't even WONDER if it's wrong.

i've skimed through various romanian bike forums and found out that my old prejudice are common place. what i read here though makes so much sense i am astonished by my own and my fellow countrymen's ignorance in the matter. :run: i guess i'll make it a goal to bring the stray sheep back to the flock

wish i could put +1 karma on this thread. instead, i'll thank all of you guys.  ;D +1 to the lot of you who opened my eyes 8)
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Cane on October 07, 2008, 08:03:51 PM
You know, I put 87 octane in my tank since I ran the 91 oct out. And to tell you the truth, i didn't feel to much of a difference until I was in a enclosed  area and hit the throttle. It seemed to have a better response, and burned "cleaner"...what I mean by cleaner is that when I would run the 91 after each ride I would have a hint of fuel to my jacket, like I sat behind my own bike and basked in the exhaust. Not that I don't mind smelling like a full tank of freedom lol....But with the lower octane being used I didn't have that smell on the jacket which to me seems as if the motor is actually burning it "cleaner" or completely during detonation, so I can see that with out actually tearing apart a motor all the things have made sense, and put miss leading information aside. 

Jeff, I have read a few things off wiki and its more numbers and mathematics when it comes to Fuel usage and proper Octane consumption, that it becomes one article against another. Thank you to every one, Jeff, Maskale, Cosmo, everyone thanx for the info and making things clear, it's better to ask those who ride the Bikes then those that read about them  and never rode one..
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Jason748 on October 07, 2008, 10:03:32 PM
For those of you wondering the differences between US Octane ratings and Octane ratings in most other parts of the world,  The are three "ratings" that you need to know.
RON = Research Octane Number
MON = Motor Octane Number
PON = Pump Octane Number, also referred to as RdON (Road Octane Number) or AKI (Anti Knock Index)

The difference between RON & MON are the conditions in which they are tested.  Then there is PON which is the average of the two.  I know in Europe, South Africa & Australia they use RON numbers on their pumps and in the US & Canada they use PON numbers on the pumps, hence the reason that the two are different and can't really be compared at face value.
I did a quick search and here is a link to a explanation and table showing the differences:  http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html (http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html)

Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Cane on October 07, 2008, 10:12:16 PM
Damn J, thanx for the info and research. +1.....To bad we can't put this in FAQ section or sticky it for things you should know before you Pump Gas lol...
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: cosmo on October 08, 2008, 03:12:10 AM
agreed, this would be an excelent sticky
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: seancusmc on October 08, 2008, 05:02:06 AM
I put ONLY this stuff in my gas tank.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: mission68 on November 17, 2008, 12:29:33 AM
I have been using 93 octane in my 87 honda elite150, I might need to bring down the octane......no wonder I blew the header bolt off, lol!!
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: Jeff on November 17, 2008, 10:41:26 AM
I have to run 93 in my zuma, but its compression ratio is something like 16:1 now with the mods =)
Title: Re: What gas to use?????
Post by: mission68 on November 19, 2008, 12:12:32 AM
Mine is not modded, just 21 years old with 12,000 miles. Zuma....Mods....like a turbo, nitrous, pegs, lucky! take that off any sweet jumps? HAHA